How to Write Email Copy That Resonates With Andre Chaperon (S2E5)

We are joined with Andre Chaperon: email copywriter, marketing expert, and founder of the tinylittlebusinesses.com. Samuel P.N. Cook interviews Andre, his former mentor, about the interplay between marketing strategies and tactics. Chaperon gives a fresh perspective on how to become successful in marketing without resorting to sleezy marketing schemes. You will learn how a solid strategy tailored to your business will accelerate your end result once the right tactics are used.

Guest: Samuel P.N. Cook and Andre Chaperon
Date Added: Jan 24, 2018 12:08:34 PM
Length: 56 min

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Summary:


Podcast moments that will matter to you:

1:45
Intro to Andre Chaperone

04:00
The differences between ‘typical marketing’ copy and Andre’s copy

07:00
Keeping the focus on the customer, not yourself

10:30
Recycling ideas can boost your creativity (‘idea sex’)

13:00
The importance of going outside the field of marketing to help yourself grow

19:00
Business systems

21:45
Manipulation behind the idea of the ‘marketer lifestyle’

28:00
Attract the right people for your business

31:00
Why repelling people in business is as important as attracting them

33:00
People want a story. Give it to them by...

41:00
The two types of marketers

Transcript:


Andre Chaperon: [00:00:01] The internet's a big place. The internet is big enough that you can put your stake in there and create a little world and change those people who you want to change.

[00:00:12] Things like that create a certain box that you cooperate within. I wouldn't want somebody to do something to me that I wouldn't do to somebody else.

[00:00:22] It's a good thing for us to at least articulate those values that we care about as a part of doing that it attracts a certain type of people. And that's basically how you want your business, right? I'm a student of marketing and as I'm learning new things and getting more clarity, we change and evolve.

[00:00:42] When you write a message and you put it out there wrapped within a story, you know, that message is going to resonate with some people and it's not going to resonate with other people. You can certainly tell a story about anything. The story definitely matters. It makes a big difference.

Samuel Cook: [00:01:17] Alright StoryMatters podcast listeners. This is Sam Cook here with my mentor in digital marketing, Andre Chaperone.

Andre Chaperon: [00:02:39] Hey. Good to be here buddy. And sadly I take the godfather thing because I receive this newsletter from Craig Valentine and his email address is Craig@godfather.com. Apparently he owns godfather.com.

Samuel Cook: [00:03:01] Well. Well one thing Andre, I mean, I think we all learn from someone. You know, what I'd like to go over today for listeners is basically the idea behind story because really you hit me like a thunderbolt when I was studying Digital Marketing and getting lost in all of the tricks and the tips and the tactics and all these things that are way obsolete since you know five years ago everything becomes obsolete very quickly.

[00:03:27] And it was kind of like a lighthouse in a stormy sea, right? Kind of just started clinging to this idea that really what counts is who you're trying to help and how you connect with them through story. How did you come around to this, I mean it's stories as old as time itself but how did you come around to really latching onto story as the most important thing that you do in marketing?

Andre Chaperon: [00:03:52] It's a good question and I don't know if it's connected to being dyslexic...probably not, but back in the day when I was younger I used to read these choose your own adventure books and although I never grew up as a big book reader, I really used to love reading those stories. And there was the anticipation of what's going to happen next? Should I go left and right or you go to page whenever? And sometimes you die and sometimes you live. Yeah I was fascinated by his books.

[00:04:22] And only later on didn't figure out initially reading and really getting his story from the business context is something that I really really enjoyed and was doing anyways without me being totally conscious about what I was doing it. So when I started email and got into email I didn't think it was a conscious thing that, oh, I should write story narratives and wrap emails around it. It just kind of that's what happened right? Only later was there the aha. This is actually working really well. Maybe I should get better at it. You hadn't answered your question but yes story definitely matters and it makes a big difference.

Samuel Cook: [00:05:03] Well Andre one of the things I love about your approach is that there are so many digital marketers out there who teach all the little tricks you need to do. And power words and you know all kinds of yeah I call them almost manipulative tactics to get people to do something. And what really hit me when I read your emails was simply that you just told great stories and you didn't try to do any of those things that we all kind of hate. Was it always that way for you or how did you come around to this what I called much better authentic approach to teaching through story and it's let's say inspiring people through story to invest in a better future?

Andre Chaperon: [00:05:49] I've always had a good understanding of strategy versus tactics you know, in terms of how they fit in and support each other. I think maybe I was lucky many years ago was a friend of mine put me on to Jay Abraham and Jay Abraham certainly influenced my thinking back then when I read his Strategy of Preeminence and part of that was different mindsets wrapped around and technical versus strategic thinking and your approach to marketing.

[00:06:19] So I've always been biased towards the sanity side of it you know tactics play a part because that's the execution element of it, but many people I think what you're suggesting many people focus on just the tactics. You know, what subject line is looking the best? You know, what's the next magic thing I can plug in and get a bump? But they do that without thinking of the overall strategy because tactics are spent to support a strategy, but I think for most people it's technical and there is no strategy. So that's the distinction. There needs to be a strategy in place and so I've always really gone deep on that side of it which is you know the whole of all my e-mail system is very strategic and it's not it's you know it's there's an approach and together only at the very end those technical components, you know, where you have to sit down and write an email and you know a part of writing an email is to think about what's the hook going to be and you know what's the story elements going to be and also what's the subject going to be? But they are less important than the overall thing.

Samuel Cook: [00:07:26] Yeah. And Andre, one of the things that I really took away from you and Autoresponder Madness was simply how much time you spent focusing on your avatar or, as I like to call your Hero, in terms of really putting the customer or the potential customer-many of them and let's say 98 percent of them never become your customers but your audience- putting them at the center of everything that you do.

[00:07:52] And it's one of those saying it it sounds so obvious when you do it but I think so many business owners become so wrapped up in their own invention in their own products and you get lost in it all the time and energy they spent which I think is very natural. But what you really taught me how to do that I think is the most important lesson, I think you know lesson four where you go, I think is a 3 or 4 where you go to the avatar in Autoresponder Madness was worth the price is of course alone out of the 20 lessons. And I just can't emphasise enough when I teach how important it is to understand that everything starts with the customer. It's scary because when you focus on them you could you could actually realise that you don't have the right product for them or you simply are not equipped to serve them properly you need to change your entire business model.

[00:08:44] Where did you come up with that framework in terms of focusing on the ideal customer? Because I know the empathy map came out of the design world.

Andre Chaperon: [00:08:53] Yeah. The actual seed idea, again, ties back to Jay Abraham. One of the things, one of the elements, that make up his trade your preeminence is to treat everybody the same you know it as if they're a customer even if they're prospect. You know, you need to treat them with empathy and that you care about them and their needs and it's your fiduciary responsibility to help them get a result and you don't only treat customers that way, you're going to treat everybody that way because the customer doesn't start up as a customer. They start off as a prospect.

[00:09:26] At some point they don't quite know who you are. They may be in your sphere of influence because of a referral or somebody told them or they just might have ended up on your website but they all start off as a non customer and you need a kind of care and be relevant and do all of that stuff way back then. Obviously customers theoretically matter more because they've taken that leap of faith and they've brought down money. But the whole idea is to treat people the same, with empathy, and then later on also reading a book called Gamestorming. I think it's called Gamestorming. And part of the games that they play in there which are business games that they get big CEOs to do, one of them was the empathy map game or thing. And that's kind of where I learnt that and then it was just about connecting the dots.

[00:10:17] I was doing custom avatars before then, but the empathy map kind of just made more sense to clarify certain areas and then you know it clarified parts of the cranial customer avatar in terms of you need to see the world through their eyes. It's not necessarily about what you think or what you believe in and in your biases and worldview. It's about them to get to be able to see the world through your through their shoes. There needs to be an element of empathy otherwise you can never you know, looks through somebody else's lens because you're going to be too biased with your own beliefs.

[00:10:59] So I guess not everybody can can do what he's did easily, so the empathy maps and building avatars certainly helps with the whole empathy stuff. And yes I guess that's not all components got added in and connected and over time it didn't or to start that way obviously.

Samuel Cook: [00:11:21] Well I think I think anyone listening to this will see that the yeah I like to say there's nothing new under the sun since Plato you know going back I mean we're all standing on the shoulders of giants and obviously you've taken a lot of inspiration from Jay Abraham who's probably the real godfather in a lot of ways to marketing and business growth. But in terms of applying that to the online digital world and giving that framework on how to do it. I mean every teacher has their own audience because they figured out how to contextualise things for that for that time and you just managed to do that. I think you know for the digital marketing world, translating.

Andre Chaperon: [00:12:06] We will get to to to see see the world and connect ideas and create frameworks in unique ways, right? So what I touch kind of has my DNA on it even though elements of it have been pulled from other people I think that's like you said and that's that's how the world works, nothing's unique anymore. It's just you know we create recipes that work really well for us and you do the same and you create these amazing recipes that allow people to be able to tell stories and videos.

Samuel Cook: [00:12:51] I think is really important that that you've done is this this idea that I call I forget who I've heard say this but it was called idea sex where you take you know you say you take two big ideas which and then you merge them together and I think one of the great things that you did for marketing was bring in this idea of the soap opera sequencer bringing in television shows and you know shows like Lost and and really explaining the Dziga Vertov effect and you know bringing in elements of psychology and entertainment into marketing.

[00:13:30] What I found so powerful about that is I think so many people so many marketers get lost in the weeds in terms of you know in our audiences it's not just people who are interested in marketing it's business owners generally and some other people who do just like learning about the power of story. But your particular background in marketing and that's obviously where I'm very heavily influenced by the power of storytelling because you know whether it's in business or in military or in relationships in life your ability to tell a story is really powerful and to get someone to buy into that story and be inspired by whether it's your family or your friends or you know armies or nations for that matter as historian and what I really liked about that and I think really inspired me was this going outside of marketing for inspiration which really gives your approach unique flavor and I just copied that further when I went to a documentary filmmaker who happened to be a marketer, learned filmmaking and I obviously went out into a lot of the Joseph Campbell material which you've also done with storyfluence and go into the Hollywood scriptwriters so talk a little bit about your inspiration for going outside of your profession for new and fresh ideas and what are you continuing to do outside of marketing to make your marketing better?

Andre Chaperon: [00:14:57] I think was home one I've heard is a lot of the the big thinkers and the people that I guess are very successful. I know Warren Buffett, Tony Manga is is big into being exposed to things that widen your your domain knowledge. So and I think at some point I read that Jay Abraham also does something similar. If somebody in a certain niche he'll grab a magazine that since I mean completely different and give it to them and tell them to read that and then see if you know anything helps.

[00:15:31] So I don't know it's I guess has been widened to me from a while back and I've get better at it because I see the benefits of going wider instead of just staying within your sphere of influence. So don't just marketing books if you want to get better in marketing you need to read all sorts of crazy shit. And that's when those those ideas start to happen, right? Because you can't get an idea from outside of your sphere of influence unless you expose yourself to these different ideas.

[00:16:04] It was Stephen King that actually wrote that that whole thing that you know ideas come out of nowhere, but you know see you have this amazing concept but that concept is a result of these two crazy ideas that kind of had idea sex and that happens in your head but you still need to get these ideas and to get those ideas you don't need to go wide. So one of the things that I do is I have an app called Flipboard. And there's a few of them. Flipboard probably my favorite one. Median is is one that also kind of laugh. Although it's less broad. So for Flipboard basically just takes news feeds from all over the place and presented to you as a magazine.

[00:16:48] So I've got one for tech and for business. But then I've also got ones for other crazy things to do with health and fitness and even just like strange things and then I'll just flip through them when I'm having breakfast in the morning. And you know it's really easy just to flip through stories and then something will catch your eye or you'll read it. And ah OK.

[00:17:14] And at some point these ideas start to have idea sex form easily. It's difficult to explain unless you're exposed to it and you actually do it. So what I do at that point is when I get an idea just so I don't forget it is I'll take a screenshot on my phone so I'll hit the home button and the power at the same time which takes a screenshot and adds it to images and then I know when I get to my desk up and just open up my photos and that idea is going to be there for me waiting and then I can just articulate it a bit further.

[00:17:46] So that's that's one of the ways that that go wide. And when I get that idea and little inspiration I'll take that image and then later when I get to my desk I'll articulate it a bit further and then I'll just put those away into like an ideas thing and then later on when I need that inspiration or need a certain idea and just go through the document and then they're all there, right?

[00:18:12] I may not use all of them, but just going down that list gives you even more ideas or you can just use some of them and then sometimes unless you add context I'll say that you know this idea could be used for this thing but I'm not quite ready for that yet so I'll just stick it in and then leave it knowing that later on when I read it when I do get to write the copy for whatever I can go back and use that idea. So that's some of the ideas that I was some of the things that I did guess.

Samuel Cook: [00:18:43] Well it's interesting that you've develop a system around that to set yourself up for being able to do this. I think I probably just keep it all in my head.

Andre Chaperon: [00:18:53] I'm getting old now and I forget things he says because this is more my ability not losing those cool ideas.

Samuel Cook: [00:19:02] Yeah. Well, I do like one of the things I like about your membership areas is you and your wife, Anita, focus obsessively on productivity and health and balance and all kinds of things. I think you've had to do in order to stay sharp as a writer and get ahead. How important has that been to you and were you always that way or what's the discipline of being a marketer? You know one of the things I like to tell my coaching students is you have to become your own copywriter. You have to become your own creative director. It's really I think impossible to outsource that even as a business owner.

Andre Chaperon: [00:19:42] I agree.

Samuel Cook: [00:19:42] You know and how do you develop that discipline especially someone who's got a lot on your shoulders as business owners who are going in a million different places. You've had to do that you know from multiple different clients and all the different projects you're working on but you've gotten quite good at that.

Andre Chaperon: [00:20:01] Yeah I mean in the beginning it was the Wild West. So you kind of had to make things up and then just do things and systems came later. You know sometimes building a system when you don't actually do anything meaningful is a bit of a waste. So the system kind of came later as I saw the need to get better, you know, doing some of the stuff, so you know once you've forgotten a few amazing ideas that at that moment in time you thought, ah this is a really cool idea. I must remember this when I get back to my desk I'm going to write this down. And then when you get at the desk all you remember is, I had a cool idea but no idea what it is. That only needs to happen a few times before you say, OK I need to sort this out. I need a better system. Then the systems start to get built and tweaked over time.

[00:20:55] So yeah, they've been added because they need to get added at some point. And they'll always be getting added as soon as we do something, whether it's new, especially if it's new. If there's anything that we're doing more than once, then there's a good chance that there's going to be a system built very quickly even if it's you know, very basic at least it's a start and it allows us to get it right over time.

[00:21:21] And I think when you when you have a team you kind of really need to have systems. It's less important when it's just you by yourself as a solopreneur.

[00:21:31] I think for the most part it just kinda works- I mean, just sits in our heads at that point which isn't the best way, but it kind of works. So yes we started building systems because we had to.

Samuel Cook: [00:21:46] And Andre just moving on a little bit to the industry and profession, one of the things I never imagined myself, you know, being a professional marketer, let alone teaching the stuff. You know when I take a look back on my early years, I just kind of really fell into this and got into it. And a lot of the credit goes to you for I think, showing me that there is a good way to do this because before you get into marketing -the profession at least- a lot of people have a very negative feeling towards marketers, and I think for very good reason.

[00:22:24] I think that a lot of people in the industry, you know one of my big complaints about the digital marketing industry, is that people try and make it all about themselves, and their supposedly great lifestyle, and how much they're making. And a lot of them aren't actually are making that, just rent that car, borrow that beach house. And then the ones that do, I think they minimise how long it took them to get to that point. I know they do because not everyone's going to get rich off this. In fact, most people don't. If you have a great business with a great product, I think internet marketing or digital marketing can definitely help get it out there, but it's not easy to get it right. And anyone who makes it seem that way I think is selling something that really is a bit dishonest. How do you how do you feel being labeled as a digital marketer and how have you managed to build such a loyal following?

[00:23:24] Because I know just from being on your list when you send out an email recommending something I just generally would buy it without thinking about it because I just trusted you to recommend only good stuff. But how did you manage to steer clear of that? You know what so many people hate about marketing?

Andre Chaperon: [00:23:42] You know the Internet, the Internet is a big place and that's the way I see it. And there is tons of pockets of people on the Internet, right? So just because one area is kind of tainted and certain types of marketers and consumers knock about in those areas, it doesn't mean that that is the whole of the Internet, right? So you know certainly my mentor, who is regarded as the best marketer in the world, Seth Godin, now he's not a top brand sort of marketer, right? He's not really a direct response guy, but there are so many things that he says that have influenced me because I think, more than anybody else, he's demonstrated mainly through his words that he writes, that you know, the Internet is big enough that you can you can put your stake out there, and create your little world and change those people who you want to change, and those people who resonate with the message that you put out. So if you wanted to avoid those people with their Ferrari's and the crazy people lying and whatever and you just, you just don't do that stuff I guess.

Samuel Cook: [00:24:59] Yeah and that's one of the things I really have appreciated about your approach to this is, I know based on the way you do this you're playing the long game. You're not trying to make the quick buck, but you would rather someone you know really get value and not necessarily invest right away, if they're not ready for it. And ultimately it just feels like it. And I think that the great lesson from you is you truly do care and have your customers best interests in mind rather than your own. And because of that, I think they reward you for that. Where did you really learn that and internalise that from? Did it take a while to get to that point or has it always been the way it's gone? I mean any big events that help you down that path in terms of developing that philosophy?

Andre Chaperon: [00:25:52] I think on some level, we are all wired slightly differently and we all have our own values and things that we care about, love. And one of the things is you know, that I care about is: I wouldn't want somebody to do something to me that I wouldn't do to somebody else. So I'm always doing things in such a way that if I was on the other side of that, I would enjoy receiving whatever, right? or see that message.

[00:26:24] So that's just one of the rules I've got. You know one of those values that that I hold dear. So it dictates that if I'm doing something that violates that, then obviously that's a red flag and I've got a check myself. Yes. I think it's a good thing for us all to at least articulate those values that we care about, even if you don't put them on your website. It's more it's more an internal thing that you use to evaluate decisions that you do on the Internet and the top marketing that you put out. So for me I've got quite a few. And you know one of the rules is to be relevant. And that kind you know, that's a cornerstone of all the e-mail stuff that our teachers send out. It's the very first thing is about being relevant and as soon as you think about that in that way it didn't prevent you from doing other things because then you're not relevant anymore.

[00:27:24] Yeah be relevant, care, you give a fuck. Things like create a certain box that we operate within. And I think we when you do that it attracts a certain type of people. And that's basically how you want your business, right? You have your certain values and you want to attract a certain type of people. You don't want to attract the wrong people, but that's one thing that I've learnt over the years as my websites have evolved and my clarity has evolved in how I approach marketing. You know, because we are all learning and we continue. We are always learning. It kind of never stops, right.

[00:28:05] So, if you go back to the way back machine and you and you look at the various versions of our websites, they've changed and evolved. And one thing that doesn't happen now, is I don't get a certain type of people that come to my websites and and browse around because it's just it's completely opposite to what they looking for. You know, those those people that are looking for the guys with, supposedly, all the money with the Ferrari's and the girls are on the sales data. And it's very very very very direct response and pressurised and you know ,what the big numbers are the screenshots?

[00:28:41] You know, they don't want to come to my website because it doesn't do that stuff, right? So yeah, I don't know if that answered your question in a roundabout away, but you know we all approach this slightly differently then it evolves over time. So that's one of the things how I've dealt with it is I'm a student in marketing and as I'm learning new things and getting more clarity, we change and evolve. And yeah, and it attracts a certain type of person.

Samuel Cook: [00:29:17] It's beautiful summary of you know, you can connect with anyone in the world and attract those kind of people that you would love to hang out with.

[00:29:28] You know, I actually was struck by this at my last workshop; how well this group of 12 people got along at the workshop because they'd all been through the same funnel and they had remarkably similar beliefs around storytelling. A lot of them happened to be in the personal, you know, various forms of personal developments. And it's not because I put any of that in the funnel but just the overall type of people I attracted to that workshop, who paid to join the coaching group in the workshop.

[00:30:00] The StoryGuild and the StoryMatters workshops were remarkably similar and it was an amazing vibe. I guess you probably get to experience that in your community. Yeah, we just saw one in Gibraltar, a few weeks ago over dinner with one of your best students in Germany that you didn't know about until you met him. We've been skiing before together and hung out in various parts of the world where we happened to cross paths. It's just really cool to be able to attract those type of people and do business with them. What a possibility we have with this if you do right.

Andre Chaperon: [00:30:36] Yeah, I mean when you write a message and you put it out there, wrapped within a story you know, that message is going to resonate with some people and it's not going to resonate with other people. So that message is the reason, obviously. And it's attracted the people that you want to attract and repelled the people that you don't want as a customer, or that you don't want to do business with. That's the goal.

[00:31:01] You know that high-level idea is that, and then it just depends on what you say to attract the type of person you want to do business with. So I guess there are different ways to approach that. And when you speak to some direct response copywriter, their approach is going to be slightly different. They use a lot more persuasion involved in what they do because they try to move somebody in a direction that may not necessarily know or want to be moved in a certain direction. So there is some persuasion and convincing that that needs to play out. Whereas I think for us, we have the advantage as we can tell our story, and then just attract the people that that story resonates with. As opposed to trying to convince somebody that's not convinced yet that this is the way to go. So it's funny different approach, but I think we end up getting better customers as a result of telling our stories with our messages wrapped within them.

Samuel Cook: [00:32:02] Two things you said there that really jumped out that I'd like to just dig into a little bit. First of all, is repelling people as much as attracting people like a magnet. I think so many people are afraid to lose a potential customer. They don't want to polarize anything. Why is it so important to repel as much as you attract?

Andre Chaperon: [00:32:24] You know, you only need to do business with us some of the wrong people and you soon figure out really quickly that these are tight kickers and mental suckers. They just waste time and they aren't willing to do what they need to do. In fact, one of the guys in our Tropp asked a similar question today, so I gave him an example, which I can kind of use here because it demonstrates the point. So the example I gave him was in the travel industry, right.

Andre Chaperon: [00:32:59] There's the tour operators that just put out commodities,like low cost, super low cost packages. You can go to a country, you stay at some mass market hotel, and you get sent to all the mass market attractions that they have deals with so they can get a kickback right. And typically what's memorable about those holidays is what went wrong. The shitty hotel and the shitty experience. And then there's the other guys, there's the Airbnb's of the world, basically that's a different type of traveler. That's a traveler that's going to DIY it themselves because they don't want the other thing, right. Well, if I was getting into the travel business I'd be something very different right. I would tell a story about me creating experiences in certain cities. So you've just come back from Greece, right. So it would be staying in these certain little boutique hotels that's being curated and connected with locals that know that area as a local. So you get a whole different perspective on that on that holiday. Right.

[00:34:18] So it's an experience to be different and you'll go to restaurants that aren't tourist traps. So you go to places that you would never ever go even if you had visited a certain city 20 times before. You just wouldn't have the same experience. So when you tell that story now, straightaway you are eliminating all the people that are wanting some low cost tour. So those people have been eliminated because that's what they want. It's not my job to convince them that actually come with us because you can have a better time. Those guys just want to take their families on a low cost thing. They aren't necessarily thinking that they're going to have a bad experience.

[00:35:02] And then those Airbnb people, well there's a lot of things that go wrong when you when you do an Airbnb. What potential things that can go wrong, like you can have a bad room or bad experience and then you've got to still figure out where to go, what to see, where to eat. So by rigging it that way, and telling your story in a certain way you're automatically going to get a full segment of people that you don't do business with. And by telling a certain story you can get those people out there who have been burnt in the past. For example and maybe want to go on these amazing experiences that's been rigged just for them.

[00:35:40] You know staying at a nice hotel and going to restaurants that they never would have been to before. And just having an amazing experience so that's one example of telling a story that would attract a certain type of person and automatically repel somebody else.

Samuel Cook: [00:35:56] You know, it's interesting you brought up travel because you know we've always met in some kind of travel context because you were traveling quite a bit around Europe for work or just going to do different things, and I was in the travel industry for a while in New York City I ran a tour company. And you know we used to we used to say go home with a story. You know, traveling is such a poignant example of how people save up 50 or 50 weeks a year to for those 2 weeks of holiday if you're from the U.S. or 48 if you're in Europe and four weeks holiday, and you get nothing out of it maybe a few t-shirts and a few fridge magnets. But really what you want is a story you can tell for the rest of your life, and how important it is that to get it right and not mess up the logistics and try and save money here and there. And obviously everyone has different budgets and different ideas of what a good experience is. But it's a really powerful industry to tell stories in and a lot of people wouldn't think of that.

[00:37:02] I just got back from Cyprus working with someone who does windows and doors. What story you're going to tell around windows and doors? We sat down and we talked about this 38 year old working professional woman who wants to build a house and you know she wants to be able to get away from her mother-in-law criticizing her and compete with her friends who all have houses and she doesn't. She doesn't have enough room for clothes in the closet.

[00:37:29] We did the whole empathy process and it was so powerful because we have this really clear idea, which is this building of a house is like a once in a lifetime experience which sometimes causes divorce because it's stressful and there's a huge story around it. If you get this right you're Queen, like you've arrived. And one of the funny things he said was, you know he's locked in for at least 10 or 15 years, he can't divorce you because of this big financial obligations.

[00:37:58] And you know he got really deep into something, he's a windows and doors manufacturer who's figured out how to become a project manager for people so that they you know learn how to have a great experience in their house. By virtue of that they're obviously going to use his windows and doors, which is the big features of a house anyway. Any industry you can tell a great story if you just sit back, go into the customer and you know step in their shoes like you've followed them. And that's just such a powerful lesson and you travel is such a great example. But something as 'boring' as windows and doors can have hugely powerful stories attached to them.

Andre Chaperon: [00:38:43] I saw a site in the past, don't remember what it was, they used to tell stories around socks. Yeah. How boring is buying a pair of socks? These guys had stories attached to every single pair of socks. You can you can you can certainly tell a story around anything.

Samuel Cook: [00:38:59] Yeah. And that's what's really important and I think so many times we forget that and we get wrapped up in the features and the benefits. But like I always like to tell my coaching students is people don't buy features and benefits they buy a better future. And that could be a 10 minute hit from a cup of coffee or that could be a lifetime from buying the right advice to get your dream home built. Or you know stories for the rest of your life from a great vacation or you know freedom by mastering marketing in your business and being able to scale your business so you're able to get leverage. And you know no one's going to buy from you unless you show them a better future and you better deliver when they invest in that future.

[00:39:49] And you know that's just really one of the things I've seen from you. And one of the contracts we like to talk about is, just give people a story and let them choose. Do you want this? Do you want to live this story? And I think one of the big things that I've really taken from you is how much you like to reflect back -not telling your story, I mean obviously your personality, your brand. That's really focused on you as a teacher- But the stories you usually tell are usually about clients. Of course Andre Chaperon knows how to write emails and do great things, but other clients that have had success using your system. I think that's way more inspirational and let's say believable and attainable to people that study you, rather than you talking about your own successes doing what you do. My favorite pet peeves is to buy a course from an Internet marketer and for 2000 dollars they just spend the entire course telling you how they took your money. It's a bit of a feedback loop there. That's it's not that pleasant sitting on the other side.

Andre Chaperon: [00:40:59] I think that early on when you've got one story to tell that's the story you have to tell. And then later on as you get success you get to tell other people stories.

[00:41:12] So I think that's kind of how it's evolved. I mean someone that's starting out obviously isn't going to have case studies that he can tell and wrap stories around.

[00:41:22] That's kind of been an evolution of the time. Although I still have my personal story on my back page. But I never push it. Like you said, it's now just there and people that find that are new and don't know me, they just find it because it's on the page and then they read it and then elements of it may resonate with them, and then they move through and experience the rest of the site. And later on they when they opt in, they get the emails and they get exposed to other people's stories. So it kind of gets layered on top of each other.

[00:41:57] Well, and that's really one of the things that you taught me when I saw your site, TinyLittleBusiness. I remember reading that whole story about Frank versus Mat where you tell the story of the two types of marketers the good one and the bad one, I guess, or the one that chases shiny objects and always goes from launch to launch broke versus the one who builds a sustainable business and really takes the long view strategic. Those are fictional characters, but instead of telling your own success story you told the stories of avatars, 2 avatars if you will. Yeah, people were able to choose that -and I'll link that to the show. That's because it's just so powerful. Do you still have that up?

Andre Chaperon: [00:42:40] Yeah. They've got their own website now. Frankvsmat.com.

Samuel Cook: [00:42:45] And I think that's a great example of how to do it if you don't have a real case study, that you're allowed to use -a lot of success stories they aren't even allowed to use- But as soon as you can you want to transition to real people telling real stories for you.

[00:42:59] When people hear about storytelling they either buy into it or they don't. They're like, oh a story doesn't matter it's you know, that's a bunch of liberal arts artsy type stuff, or they buy the story but then they think it's all about their own story; let me tell you how much I make in a year. I'm working 7 days a week, here's my own hero's journey... And I've actually made that mistake before. I've I've taken clients and tried to tell their story and it just didn't work. And then when we flipped that around and told the 'story' of the people they are speaking to, even in just a generic way without even testimonials, it took off and resonated. And that's one of the things I've learned from you. Or let's say I learned not always applied but you know when you get back to basics that's one of the core teachings.

[00:43:53] Yeah I mean, our heroes are our customers. In our businesses, it wasn't me, it wasn't Anita, it's the people that have been exposed to the stuff that we do. And they've come out of the other send smelling the roses and being awesome.

Samuel Cook: [00:44:17] And Andre on that note, I really can't thank you enough for the impact you've had on my life. I mean I was in the army, I felt stuck and wanted to get out and I was starting this digital marketing agency and struggling. And one of the key things that set me on the path to successfully launch an agency was email marketing. I've always been a good writer -thought I was- I had to get over that master's degree, college education to learn how to simplify my writing again so that it's intelligible which you were never burdened with, as you say, over education like some of us. Which is a huge disadvantage, if you listen to this and think you don't have writing skills, well that's actually a good thing because one of the things I've learned from Andre is how to write like you're in third grade again and it works way better than writing some thesis.

[00:45:14] You know Andre just you say you know you're here for your customers, people can take your material and make a difference and I couldn't. Yeah, that's why you're on this podcast as I'm interviewing the most influential people my life in terms of learning how to take this abstract concept of story, which I've always known through the Historian. But apply it to business and making money and helping business owners make money for themselves. It's been hugely powerful, so thanks for that.

Andre Chaperon: [00:45:47] Yeah. You're more than welcome, I appreciate your kind words.

Samuel Cook: [00:45:51] Yes, so Andre. Quick teaser of some things to come. I'm going to wrap this up, I'm going to give the final, let's say, takeaways for the audience. But before we get to that, I'm planning within the next year in 2018 a StoryMatters Live Summit. We're hoping that you'll be there. We're trying to get some great speakers there and also some workshops together.

[00:46:20] Let's hope that I can get you there, but thanks for that inspiration. We're trying to do all the heavy lifting of building a real marketing community in Europe that stands apart from the U.S. one. Which is where a lot of the great ideas and innovations come from, but maybe not necessarily the best, let's say some of the people in that industry have given it a bad name, from my perspective by the way they've acted. So looking forward to that. And also what's coming next for you? What is coming out of the pipeline from your side? I know that you've just worked on a new product called Sphere Of Influence. You've got a TinyBusiness rewrite. Talk a little bit about your future projects.

Andre Chaperon: [00:47:03] Actually we were going to be releasing Sphere of Influence was only ever released for one day which was on March 7th for my birthday. And it's been closed ever since. We're going to open it up again as Deola training course for those people that want to go through it on their own steam and then do what it says we'll take elements of it and apply to their business and then later on, probably next year we'll do high-level workshops around but online workshops because I didn't do anything in person.

[00:47:38] But yes that's one of our projects to to present that. Put it live and we'll probably do that in the next month or so. Yeah. Otherwise we got our tribe and within that as you said I'm working on the rewrite of TLB2 which is our big training course been off the market for a few years now. So it's been fun. I've released the first lesson last week to our tribersters and it's been it's been great but that's it really I just kind of do my own thing in my corner of the Web. And that's it kind I'm just I'm a quiet person. I'm a shy introverts. That's me.

Samuel Cook: [00:48:20] Well Andre, one of the things I really appreciate, I love making videos but I have a really hard time because my time constraints actually watching them and your education style is written which really resonates with me because I like reading the written word and I know how long it takes. One of the reasons I make video is it's just a lot easier for my side. The way the way I operate I can get up and put together some slides and talk pretty intelligently on some concepts and wing it a bit, let's say. But you know to sit down and write and edits the material that you do for your courses. I know it was a tremendous amount of work and much appreciated because of how say efficient is to learn concepts from you.

[00:49:07] Well yeah thanks. I wish that I could do here because as you said it's a bit quicker but I'm terrible at it. I'm stuck with just writing words, that's me. It just takes longer, it takes longer to put anything out but when it when it is finally released, people love it. This is that.

Samuel Cook: [00:49:28] Yeah. And hopefully, we can twist your arm and get to the live event. I know a lot of people that are in our community would love to meet you. You know let's see if we can get you there at least bless off on the event.

Andre Chaperon: [00:49:41] Yeah. I mean if I do show up. I will probably be the guy in the corner with a beer in his hand.

Samuel Cook: [00:49:47] Yeah sure will enjoy meeting you and Anita so... Okay, Andre last thing. Just a few key takeaways if you had a couple of tips you'd like to leave the audience with as they're going forward. Could be big or small ideas. What are what are some final takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with as they go on to continue their journey to master storytelling?

Andre Chaperon: [00:50:13] Well number one is tell stories. Even if the bad stories. All stories start a bad and you get better at it over time. It's impossible to write a story that's going to be a blockbuster from the very beginning. It's an iterative process. You kind of just got to create them, put it out there and it's going to resonate with people. The other element is definitely be relevant. So when you're relevant and you tell your stories they're going to come across in a way that's that far more and you know it's going to connect with people on a certain level especially if you are empathetic and you can you tell that story as if you can see the world through their eyes. Again that ties back to creating empathy maps and your custom avatars and then just just care in the words of Gary Vaynerchuk. You just need to give a fuck. So and I think that's it really just to tell their stories and one they will become good stories to be relevant and care.

Samuel Cook: [00:51:13] In the words of the great Internet philosopher Gary Vaynerchuk. And yeah I mean he's actually I think puts out a lot of great stuff. And everyone I'm sure many people have heard of him. If they haven't, they will soon because he's he's getting out there. Well, Andre thank you again for sharing with the audience your insights. I cannot recommend you of course highly enough I'll put a link in the show notes to Autoresponder Madness which is very affordable. What does it now? How much does it cost?

Andre Chaperon: [00:51:48] 397 I think.

Samuel Cook: [00:51:50] Yeah three hundred ninety-seven dollars of course with the weak dollar right now in Europe that's quite affordable and it's basic textbook material as far as I'm concerned for marketing I recommend it to all the people in my coaching group. You know that's that's really what I consider how I got my start in doing things differently and the way the path that I'm on started really with Autoresponder Madness and you've just really been you know I think a shining light to people in terms of the power of story and caring about the people you're telling the stories for. And if you're listening to this now and you aren't in marketing or you want to apply this and other areas of your marketing just do a quick mental exercise and think about the people you care about in your life and what you'd like to inspire them to do rather than potentially coercing them to do and perhaps telling better stories in life, not just in marketing is a good idea.

[00:52:48] And wouldn't it be amazing to do an empathy map for your wife or your spouse and sit down and you know apply some of these techniques were used in marketing? I think every area of life it's fundamental and some of our other episodes I talk about this with our military commanders about the power of storytelling in areas that are far more important than business. I think Andre has definitely given some insights into how an expert storyteller does it and I'd highly recommend that you go check out his course Autoresponder Madness to this. Also link to his free email series which leads to Autoresponder Madness. Be careful you'll probably buy if you sign up for the emails. But that's the power of his inspiring stories.

Andre Chaperon: [00:53:31] Can I add one extra thing which is linked to what you've just said?

Samuel Cook: [00:53:35] Sure.

Andre Chaperon: [00:53:37] If you do do a search on Google for empathy map they've just released a brand new version of it. So it's hot off the press. It's got a few extra elements on it that actually makes it even easier not to create empathy map. And he's got an article on Medium. But he's type it into Google. I'm sure it'll come up and yeah.

Samuel Cook: [00:53:53] A new empathy map is it helpful, have you applied it yet? Yeah, well read it and see what the differences are and it's certainly in terms of a teaching tool. It's a lot clearer in terms of what people need to do and it'll help them get into that mode of being empathetic and.

Andre Chaperon: [00:54:12] We'll definitely link to that on the show notes also. So thanks again Andre for sharing your insights with the community. If you were inspired by Andre episode, please leave a review in iTunes or on the blog and do check out at least his free email series and content series and definitely consider getting what I think is his foundation for internet marketing. Digital Marketing is Autoresponder Madness join part of Andre's world because if you're part of this community were heavily influenced by what Andre's doing and will always be learning from what he's doing because we both have different insights and ideas that we inspire each other.

[00:54:56] So thanks again for joining us and look forward to having you on the next episode of StoryMatters.

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